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MSNBC'S Chris Hayes On The "Character Assassination" Of Trayvon Martin: "The Racial Backlash Is Now At Full Tilt"

April 01, 2012 12:14 pm ET

From the April 1 edition of MSNBC's Up with Chris Hayes:

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Previously:

How The Right Deals With A Problem Like Trayvon Martin

Fox's Tamara Holder: Black People Are Making Trayvon Martin Case "More Of A Racial Issue Than It Should Be"

Limbaugh: Advertiser Exodus And Outrage Over Trayvon Martin Shooting Are "Trumped Up"

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    • Author by jjamele2880 (April 01, 2012 12:41 pm ET)
      11 49
      I realized a few minutes in that Chris Hayes' entire show today was going to be what it has been for the last few weeks- Treyvon Martin was a Child Saint who was murdered by a racist thug, and all the abuse has been coming from the Right. We won't hear about Roseanne Barr and Spike Lee basically putting a bounty on Zimmerman's head, because that would wreck the meme.

      And the irony is that at it's base, this is "check out how horribly one-sided the media has been on this" story.

      The fact is, both sides have failed miserably here. On MSNBC, Zimmerman was a 240-lb (they never get tired of telling us how big he was) racist with a gun who stalked and slaughtered an innocent little boy because, well, he's a racist with a gun. Go to Fox, and Zimmerman was defending his property and Treyvon was a hoodie-wearing gangsta out looking for trouble, with a police record the race-hustlers are trying to cover up. My guess is that the truth is somewhere in between, but we'll never get it from either MSNBC OR Fox, because they are too busy talking past those who disagree with their one-sided viewpoints to wait for the facts to emerge.

      Our media, at it's best- which is to say, at it's worse.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by phlcstgan (April 01, 2012 12:47 pm ET)
        48 10
        That's kind of a false equivalence, considering Zimmerman DID stalk and slaughter an innocent boy. The fearsome edicts of international crime lords Roseanne Barr and Spike Lee don't change that fact, no matter how badly you want them to.
        But congratulations on fully crossing over into concern troll-dom, at long last.
        My guess is that the truth is somewhere in between

        Oh, thank you for mansplaining it to us, O Wise Prophet of White Privilege.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jjamele2880 (April 01, 2012 12:53 pm ET)
          10 47
          You have no idea that Zimmerman "DID stalk and slaughter an innocent boy." You have made up your mind, based on virtually nothing other than the fact that a young man is dead and your preferred media has told you the story you want to hear.

          And spare me the condescension. I am not going to apologize because I don't take my cues from some media Star Chamber.

          "O Wise Prophet of White Privilege" -- you ought to be ashamed of that, but I doubt you are capable.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by dhertzfe (April 01, 2012 1:05 pm ET)
            30 2
            Information from his girlfriend stated that Trayvon said Zimmerman was following him on the cell phone. You can argue if she was telling the truth, then we can argue that Zimmerman was telling the truth when he told his father, brother, and so called friend what happened.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by bintx (April 01, 2012 5:04 pm ET)
              27 2
              Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher he was following Martin. The 911 dispatcher told him not to follow Martin. Zimmerman ignored that warning. At that point, he became the aggressor.

              Report Abuse
          • Author by phlcstgan (April 01, 2012 1:12 pm ET)
            34 9
            You have made up your mind, based on virtually nothing other than 911 tapes, video evidence that Zimmerman had no serious injuries, and Zimmerman's documented history of racial paranoia

            Fixed. Yeah, I'm just the next Hitler, aren't I?
            I will spare you the condescension; I know you hate rivals.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by CoolSlaw (April 01, 2012 1:36 pm ET)
              26 2
              it appears we need to go beyond the "stand your ground laws" now.

              Listen to the right wingers here and in the media. Clearly we need to ensure the safety of gun toting paranoid racists so they don't have to even be suspected of murdering people who don't look the way they want them to look.

              I propose the "cut of his jib" law. Now you don't even have to claim you were "standing your ground" in those cases when you really need to stalk, assault, and murder a random stranger. Now you can just state "I didn't like the cut of his jib!" and you're acquitted on the spot.

              Brought to you by the NFSBNRBRNRA*

              *National formerly sane, but now run by reactionary nutjobs rifle association
              Report Abuse
              • Author by tbone (April 01, 2012 2:15 pm ET)
                22 1
                I think the "stand your ground" law is a peripheral issue here. While it may be the basis why Zimmerman hasn't been charged (yet), I don't think any of us would disavow we have a right to protect ourselves from potentially lethal violence - irrespective the location and whether or not we are armed.

                I agree with JJ that Zimmerman has been tried and convicted in the media - but that's not unusual in the modern era. What is troubling is that all of the facts continue to line up against him and given that, one begins to wonder if any of his statements are trustworthy.

                1. Local watch person sees individual he thinks could be trouble - follows person in vehicle, calls police.
                2. At some point, leaves vehicle and confronts person, against advise of authority.
                3. During confrontation, shoots and kills unarmed person. Claims to be in fear of life and after having been assaulted.
                4. Police reports corroborate some of his statements (re broken nose, bloody), however video evidence seems to indicate otherwise.

                Given that Zimmerman purposefully did not follow instructions at point 2, no real element of stand your ground plays in his favor. The intent of such a law is that you have such a right in a defensive situation, not a confrontation of your own making. Also, given point 4, and that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of significant injury or medical treatment, the facts seemingly lead to at least the bringing of a charge of involuntary manslaughter.

                Let the jury sort it out.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by grmce (April 01, 2012 2:33 pm ET)
                  11 1
                  The jury is required to sort it out according to the instructions of the presiding judge regarding the law.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by The Liberal Republican (April 01, 2012 4:08 pm ET)
                  6  
                  We need a jury first!
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by The Liberal Republican (April 01, 2012 4:08 pm ET)
                  10  
                  We need a jury first!
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by bintx (April 01, 2012 5:02 pm ET)
                  13 1
                  Unless he's arrested and charged with something, there will be no jury. That's the point.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Bronwyn (April 01, 2012 5:53 pm ET)
                    10  
                    Now they need a Grand Jury Indictment to arrest him.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 7:13 pm ET)
                    9  
                    Funny, I was thinking that he should have been arrested and charged with something on the night of February 26.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Bronwyn (April 01, 2012 8:12 pm ET)
                      9  
                      Yep, and so did the cop that originally interviewed him and filed the affidavit to arrest him..hmmm
                      Report Abuse
                • Author by CoolSlaw (April 02, 2012 10:06 am ET)
                  2  
                  I think the "stand your ground" law is a peripheral issue here.


                  I would disagree. I think it's fair to amend our laws to allow for self defense, but laws like "stand your ground" are too broad brushed in their scope. You are creating a one-size-fits-all legal loophole and generic defense that allows exactly the kind of situation we have unfolding here.

                  Let the jury sort it out.


                  This case wouldn't have ever seen a jury if it hadn't been for a national media uproar.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by Andy Kreiss (April 01, 2012 2:23 pm ET)
                21 3
                I saw an interesting change of course this morning, from a Facebook friend who's susceptible to 'news' items from Fox and Breitbart.

                After weeks of defending Zimmerman and the vigilante mindset, and demonizing Martin, the new goalpost position seems to be loosely citing that some Democrats ( apparently a lot in FL) voted to pass 'Stand Your Ground' type laws.

                And the zombies won't even notice, just like with the Iraq war.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by AB-001 (April 01, 2012 4:30 pm ET)
                  9 1
                  that's the newest talking point at Fox Nation as well...albeit the "discussion" following the article focuses on how it's not about race...with all the code words/phrases you'd expect from the discourse level at that web site.
                  Report Abuse
          • Author by MidnightWriter (April 01, 2012 1:23 pm ET)
            30  
            Actually we do know that Zimmerman stalked and killed an innocent boy -- he admitted to it and there are the 911 recordings proving as much. There's absolutely no dispute about that.

            The remaining "defense" for Zimmerman was that he acted in "self defense" offering up the idea that the young man he had been stalking first in his SUV and then on foot, suddenly whirled around and attacked him -- curiously only a few steps away from his intended destination. Zimmerman's defenders told us of frightful injuries he received -- injuries that a curiously unseen in the high definition video recording taken at the police station less than an hour after Martin was gunned down.

            Say what you will about attempts to portray Martin as a "saint" (although that can hardly be said about what we're seeing in what Hayes offers here). Graffiti and the possession of a screwdriver, and empty bags of weed notwithstanding Trayvon Martin was guilty of nothing on the night he was killed. And we're only be treated to his far from meriting execution misdeeds, and "scary" tweets, and "scary" photos (ooooh, grillz--yeah, that's a reason to grab your guns) as Zimmerman's "defense" grows weaker and weaker.

            The right doesn't care about Zimmerman's due process, jjamele. They only wish to "defend" a terrible gun law.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by phlcstgan (April 01, 2012 1:25 pm ET)
              17 5
              Now, now, it's not just that; they want to promote the idea that all black people are violent criminals too.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by Brabantio (April 01, 2012 1:53 pm ET)
            26  
            You have made up your mind, based on virtually nothing other than the fact that a young man is dead and your preferred media has told you the story you want to hear.
            Did anyone else note the irony of criticizing someone for having "made up your mind", and then saying "your preferred media has told you the story you want to hear"?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 4:55 pm ET)
            17 1
            You have no idea that Zimmerman "DID stalk and slaughter an innocent boy."
            No, you are quite wrong. I do have an idea, and in fact I have more than just an idea.
            Listen to the 911 tapes and you will have more than an idea too. Find out from Zimmerman's own call that he called 911 because he saw a "suspicious looking" dude walking on his turf. Find out that, despite the 911 operator telling him not to pursue, Zimmerman exited his vehicle and chased down a 17 year old whose only crime was that he walked to the store and back. Find out, from others' calls, that prior to Zimmerman silencing him with a gunshot, Martin was SCREAMING for help.

            Then put yourself in that 17 year old's place. Consider that it is dark and rainy, and you are minding your own business, walking back from the convenience store with a bag of Skittles and a bottle of iced tea. You notice a vehicle slowly following you and you turn to look at it. You can't really tell if it is a cop car or not. It is dark, and there IS something on the roof. Could be a light bar. So you take a couple of steps toward it, and notice that it is not a light bar, it is just a roof rack.
            It is dark, it is rainy, and someone is casing you. Are you about to be abducted?
            I don't know about you, but I am going to hightail it out of there. Then, once the guy comes out of his vehicle and starts to chase me, I am SURE that I am about to be abducted, molested, or worse.

            But never mind. You are probably right. Trayvon deserved to be killed because he didn't just stand there and wait to see if the guy was bent on being a bad guy. He should have just assumed that the guy who had been stalking him wanted nothing more than information.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by bintx (April 01, 2012 5:00 pm ET)
              14 2
              jjamele doesn't want to put himself in anyone's place. He's the epitome of perfection. Just ask him.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 6:01 pm ET)
                11 1
                Yeah, I have also noticed that he doesn't like to respond to much of anything. To be fair though, it might not be that he doesn't want to respond, it might just be that my post was too long to keep his attention. It is very apparent that the 911 tapes and other evidence against Zimmerman was.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by megaphin (April 02, 2012 9:44 pm ET)
             
          What evidence do you have to back up your claim Zimmerman stalked and slaughtered an innocent boy?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 04, 2012 8:52 am ET)
               
            I dunno, maybe it is the 911 tape where Zimmerman says that he has been following the kid in his car, then exits (against the advice of the operator) and pursues him.

            Oh, and the fact that Martin, the ONLY person in that scenario who should have been able to defend himself via the "Stand Your Ground" law, is quite dead.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by mr. l (April 01, 2012 12:53 pm ET)
        23 6
        Uummm... Zimmerman DID stalk and kill an unarmed black teenager. Have you researched Zimmerman's past behavior? He's a full fledged racist who walks around looking to shoot some blacks.

        And Barr and Jones? Puh-leeze! The actions of others don't detract from the killing itself...
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jjamele2880 (April 01, 2012 12:57 pm ET)
          9 31
          Have you researched Zimmerman's past behavior? He's a full fledged racist who walks around looking to shoot some blacks

          Hardly worth replying to, but I'll give it a shot:

          1. No, I haven't researched Zimmerman's past behavior. My guess is, you haven't either. But in case I'm wrong, please enlighten me- how many kids has he shot? How many times as he been convicted of assault?

          2. "He's a full fledged racist who walks around looking to shoot some blacks"- you know this, how, exactly? Fact is, you don't. But it fits your preferred worldview, so there it is, and anyone who suggest that maybe we should see the evidence before condemning anyone is a troll, right?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by phlcstgan (April 01, 2012 1:14 pm ET)
            30 5
            No, I haven't researched Zimmerman's past behavior

            IMAGINE THAT.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by mr. l (April 01, 2012 1:18 pm ET)
            26 4
            I have researched his past behaviors- he's a racist. He walks around neighborhoods with guns calling 911 all the time to report 'suspicious black people'. He stalked and killed a black teenager, who he called a 'phucing coon' on a 911 call, with a gun. Pretty simple stuff to educate yourself about...
            Report Abuse
          • Author by MidnightWriter (April 01, 2012 1:33 pm ET)
            30  
            "How many kids has he shot?" Seriously?

            That's what you have to offer? This, somehow, is supposed to mean that this shooting and this killing are less serious?

            What would be the minimum number of shootings required to raise some outrage from you, jjamele?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by phlcstgan (April 01, 2012 1:54 pm ET)
              22 4
              He's still got two shooting-kids strikes left, apparently.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by politeradical (April 01, 2012 2:06 pm ET)
              19  
              Jesus Christmas. The argument amounts to Family Guy's Spiderman saying "everybody get one."

              Good to know we get a pass on the first shooting.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by villabolo (April 01, 2012 2:18 pm ET)
            15 6
            You know what? I really could not care less if Trayvon beat the caca out of that guy since any research would show that Zimmerman was the type of person who would have provoked such a fight in the first place.

            I doubt that Zimmerman had any thing but crap to tell Trayvon when he approached him.

            He might have even used the 'N' word for all we know.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by Bronwyn (April 01, 2012 2:59 pm ET)
            20  
            jjamele, there had been complaints about Zimmerman and his tactics in his neighborhood watch captain role.

            In 2005 Zimmerman was arrested for assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest. Both are third degree felony in Florida, he bargained, and opted for, and completed a Diversion type program, so the charges were dropped and the case expunged.

            Incidentally that case he was butting in on a friends situation with a police officer. There was also an arrest for assaulting his girl friend that went no where.

            He made 46, 911 calls in 2011 and not one of those calls resulted in an arrest. One of his suspicious black subjects was a 9 year old boy.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:04 pm ET)
              11 1
              Considering how serious these previous charges against Zimmerman are, is it surprising to anyone that his father is a magistrate? I have known many a young thug wannabe who was saved time and again from doing serious jail time because his daddy had influence.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by highlyunlikely (April 01, 2012 3:53 pm ET)
            14 3
            in which jj would have been better off not giving it a shot.

            Playing the contrarian is fun, I suppose. It doesn't mean not choosing which battles wisely.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 7:19 pm ET)
              10  
              Apparently it does require either a lack of shame or a lack of that personal responsibility the GOPpers are always yammering about.

              Admitting that you were wrong is such a pansy liberal thing to do.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 02, 2012 5:22 am ET)
            5  
            How many times as he been convicted of assault?
            OK you got us there. While he HAS been arrested for assault (of a police officer) at least twice, he has never actually been convicted. That couldn't have anything to do with the influence that his father wields as a magistrate in that county, could it?

            People have already addressed your second "point" so I won't bother.

            Is this post short enough to keep your attention and garner a response?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Bronwyn (April 02, 2012 11:44 am ET)
              3  
              Hey, Curious, I've learned that it was actually in the State of Virginia, that Zimmerman's father served as a full time magistrate, 2000-2006, but he wasn't a real judge. I'm relieved to learn he never presided over jury trials.

              Virginia magistrates are judicial officers, but they are not considered "judges" and do not possess trial jurisdiction.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by curiousindependent (April 02, 2012 1:02 pm ET)
                2  
                That might keep him from having influence in Florida. Might not, credentials are credentials. If so, it raises more questions of how Zimmerman has managed to stay out of jail, given his past.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Bronwyn (April 02, 2012 1:46 pm ET)
                  2  
                  Oh, I'm sure his parents were well known by the law enforcement in Sanford, and probably did have influence. His mother was also a former clerk of the court. The incident with Zimmerman's ex fiance "he was trolling her neighborhood to check up on her" when they got in a fight. That's stalking. And her new boy friend complained about the many texts Zimmerman was sending him and considered filing a restraining order. It also appears now, that Zimmerman had family members at the jail, with him, the night they decided not to file charges and released him.

                  I just thought you might not want to say it was that county his pop was a magistrate. I had thought that it was, too.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by curiousindependent (April 02, 2012 6:53 pm ET)
                    2  
                    I had too, but truly, in my experience, it wouldn't really matter. A judicial or law-enforcement official will generally have at least a little "brotherhood" pull just about anywhere.

                    I used to have a customer who was a long-retired circuit-court judge in Southwest Texas and had moved to the DFW area upon his retirement; he should not have been driving, period. He couldn't pass the eye exam with help.
                    He told me that he simply went to a local judge and had him write him an exception.
                    "Brotherhood" pull.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Bronwyn (April 02, 2012 7:17 pm ET)
                      2  
                      Yep, and I'm sure retired or not he was involved in community activities or functions involving law enforcement. I bet he's a real pompous ass, for sure he's a lying jerk. I could tell you horror stories all day long, about that "Brotherhood", too.
                      Report Abuse
      • Author by CoolSlaw (April 01, 2012 12:56 pm ET)
        20 7
        I realized a few minutes in that Chris Hayes' entire show today was going to be what it has been for the last few weeks- Treyvon Martin was a Child Saint who was murdered by a racist thug, and all the abuse has been coming from the Right.


        I know it's not as good as those stories about kidnapped pretty white women, but the media needs to fixate on something. I wonder why this story has all the right wingers and people "who have best friends that are black" find this particular story so infuriating?

        Why now do they speak up against sensational media? Why has this story suddenly granted them an epiphany? OMG! The media is fixating on particular cases? When did this start happening!?

        Oh! This time it's a black teenage boy. I guess that changes everything for people like concern troll jjamelle.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jjamele2880 (April 01, 2012 12:58 pm ET)
          9 30
          Wow, thanks for reminding me why I've pretty much given up posting here. You put up so many straw men I'd need a flamethrower to take them all down. Life's too short.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by CoolSlaw (April 01, 2012 1:14 pm ET)
            27 7
            Do you know what a strawman is?

            My post was pretty short, so how many "strawmen" could I have made?

            Sounds more like an admission that you got nothin'...which is what you started with.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by phlcstgan (April 01, 2012 1:19 pm ET)
              21 7
              Do you know what a strawman is?

              Anything Hipster Troll disagrees with, obviously.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by n'est-ce pas (April 01, 2012 3:43 pm ET)
            13 4
            You don't seem to know what a strawman is. Seriously, don't use terms you can't define.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 7:21 pm ET)
            9  
            You put up so many straw men I'd need a flamethrower to take them all down. Life's too short.
            OK, point taken. Pick one, tell us how and why it is a straw man, and then take it down.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by historygeek001 (April 01, 2012 11:41 pm ET)
            6  
            jjamele, thank you for helpfully illustrating how absolutely moronic Zimmerman's defenders actually are. You clearly get your "information" from Foxpac and haven't listened to the actual 911 tape, you aren't interested in what actually happened because it's more important to you to excuse the murder of a 17 year old boy. If you tried to do anything else, you failed again.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 02, 2012 5:28 am ET)
            5  
            Wow, thanks for reminding me why I've pretty much given up posting here.
            Wait, wait, don't tell me.... is it because you don't like facts and apt analogies?

            So, since MMFA, unlike Right Wing Propaganda Machine sites, will continue to allow you to post (even lies) as long as you don't seriously and repeatedly violate the TOS, what do we have to do to change that "pretty much" to "completely"?

            Will more facts do it?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by bintx (April 02, 2012 8:54 am ET)
            6 1
            The reason you've "given up posting here" is that you can't get anyone to agree with your BS. You believe, wrongly, that you are the only one with a legitimate, cogent opinion. In other words, jjamele, you don't like being wrong.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:07 pm ET)
          9 2
          I think Fox just likes this story because now they can say:

          Look, we defended a Latino in the Martin thing, we CAN'T hate Latinos.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by 1st Republic 14th Star (April 01, 2012 12:59 pm ET)
        23  
        That's one of the things I hate about stories going national -- the arguments become more simple and more removed from the actual events, and people become intractable. Then the BS they heard from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from Fox News takes over:

        "Actually, they did find the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

        "Actually, Valerie Wilson revealed her own identity."

        "Actually, Trayvon Martin jumped on the guy and was smashing his head into the concrete."

        Once those straw men get raised, you can't ever argue about the main point, which of course is the intent of the people who raise the straw men -- to prevent an argument about the main point.

        I will say this about Trayvon Martin's shooting going national -- every new piece of information seems to undermine Zimmerman.

        The lastest is the acoustics experts who said they're all but certain that the one yelling for help in the background of the 911 calls is not Zimmerman. Clearly, if he's lying about that, the rest of his story is suspect.

        I don't know what's true, at least not yet, but I do know that each thing that becomes public seems to be in conflict with Zimmerman's story.

        The story that the cops filled out more than one report, and only in the second one do they mention injuries to Zimmerman -- if true, that undermines Zimmerman.

        The video that appears not to show the injuries the cops claim Zimmerman had -- if true, that undermines Zimmerman. If he really was hurt, he'd better produce photos or a doctor's report right off, or his version is going to remain suspect.

        People like Spike Lee do us no good with their stupid tweets and idiotic comments -- they enable conservatives to raise false equivalency arguments.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by CoolSlaw (April 01, 2012 1:21 pm ET)
          23 4
          Those aren't strawmen you describe, those are downright lies manufactured and injected into the national discourse by our timid, corporate media who are terrified of being called "liberal" or "biased" for calling out the liars.

          Media reporter:

          "Liberal guy has just spoken about specific language in the bill and the historic arguments presented by state supreme courts regarding it's implementation, conservative guy interrupted him and screamed about birth certificates and death panels for two minutes...we'll just have to call it even and let you, the viewer decide."
          Report Abuse
      • Author by Boswell (April 01, 2012 1:34 pm ET)
        22 3
        Martin had every right to be there
        Martin had no gun
        Martin had Skittles and tea
        Zimmerman had a gun and an attitude
        Zimmerman targeted and stalked the kid
        Zimmerman pulled the trigger

        any way you add it up you are a fool and a liar and Zimmerman is a murderer.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by dazednamused (April 01, 2012 4:14 pm ET)
          10 1
          This is why only someone with extensive training should carry a firearm. If good ol' Zim would have kept his head via any type of training, maybe he would have simply shot the kid in the leg. No, this itchy-trigger bozo simply blasts him in the chest. I have a good friend who is a highly-decorated narcotics cop in Baltimore. He told me once that a drug-crazed perp came running at him and his partner in a darkened apartment building with a kitana sword in his hand. My buddy calmly aimed and shot the guy in the shoulder. He dropped the sword and got his day in court. That is what extensive training can do for you.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:10 pm ET)
            10 1
            Well, nice story, and kudos to the cop. But you missed the entire point. Zimmerman didn't panic, and he didn't miss. He shot Martin exactly where he wanted to.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mjh (April 01, 2012 6:13 pm ET)
              7  
              "Zimmerman didn't panic, and he didn't miss. He shot Martin exactly where he wanted to."


              Lending further credence to the theory that Zimmerman didn't shoot him in self-defense, but because he wanted to . . .

              Report Abuse
              • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 7:23 pm ET)
                6 1
                I think Martin's terror-stricken screams for help, clearly heard in one of the 911 tapes, pretty much destroy the idea that Zimmerman shot him in self-defense.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by 1st Republic 14th Star (April 01, 2012 11:51 pm ET)
                  10  
                  Another point about the Trayvon Martin shooting. Notice that the people who want to excuse Zimmerman on the grounds of "Stand Your Ground" and the people who always hype "self defense" and "crime stoppers" type shootings are NOT suggesting that Trayvon Martin should have had a gun and should have "stood his ground" and shot Zimmerman. Hmmm -- why is that, I wonder?

                  If you followed their "the Second Amendment means everyone should be armed" logic to its ultimate conclusion, you'd have Martin and Zimmerman shooting at each other in the dark and in a residential neighborhood. I wonder why no one conservatives and NRA types are sounding off in favor of THAT?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mjh (April 02, 2012 1:07 am ET)
                    4  
                    "If you followed their "the Second Amendment means everyone should be armed" logic to its ultimate conclusion, . . ."


                    . . . everyone would have their own personal stockpile of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons . . .


                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by curiousindependent (April 02, 2012 5:15 am ET)
                    6  
                    It is clear to me, from Zimmerman's own 911 tape, that the only person who should have been able to claim self-defense in this incident via the Stand Your Ground(tm) law was Trayvon Martin. After all, Zimmerman was the aggressor, stalking Martin on a dark, rainy night.

                    Even one of the co-authors of the law states that it was never meant to be a "pursue and confront" law. I mean, really, isn't the Right Wing Propaganda Machine constantly telling us the intentions of the Founding Fathers(tm) in writing the Constitution? Here we actually have one of the framers of a law telling us his interpretation of that law and they want to ignore him.

                    If you believe Zimmerman's story (I do not, but FOX, hate radio, and the entire Right Wing Propaganda Machine seem to) then Martin had every right to Stand His Ground(tm). There doesn't really seem to be any valid reason for them to be on Zimmerman's side here, except for the skin tone thing.
                    Report Abuse
      • Author by Brabantio (April 01, 2012 1:34 pm ET)
        22 1
        I don't think anyone's suggested that Martin never did anything wrong in his life. The point very clearly would be that he was committing no crime, and his police record doesn't change that (really, did Zimmerman have access to it before he shot Martin?).

        Zimmerman's weight is relevant, for reasons you surely grasp.

        A few recent developments you might want to know about;the funeral director said that there were no signs of a struggle on Martin's body;videotape of Zimmerman at the police station showed no trauma to his head, contradicting the "head repeatedly slammed against ground" defense, and voice experts are denying the possibility of Zimmerman being the one who screamed for help.

        You also might want to look into Zimmerman's history of 911 calls.

        If the truth is "somewhere" in between, it would appear to be very close to the MSNBC side, from everything that's out there.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by phredicles (April 01, 2012 2:34 pm ET)
          18  
          Surely it doesn't matter if Martin wasn't a saint. I'm not a saint either. And yet I rest confident that if I were to be out walking with some skittles and some MFing iced tea, even at night, even if I'm wearing a hoodie, no one has the legal right to shoot me. I see no reason for Martin to have been out of line to hold the same confidence.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:12 pm ET)
            10 2
            Oh come on, phred. Martin was black. That was PLENTY of reason for Zimmerman to shoot him. And the entire Right Wing Propaganda Machine seems to be behind that idea.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by phredicles (April 01, 2012 5:55 pm ET)
              9  
              Well, ya got me there: My confidence stems from the fact that I'm a middle-aged white guy.

              But yeah, the propaganda mill sure doesn't seem a bit interested that Martin was minding his own d@mn business when Zimmerman decided he'd found his latest chance to feel Important, either.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 7:24 pm ET)
                8 1
                No, they certainly do not. The sad thing is, I don't see a lot of the so-called "liberal media" pointing that out either.
                Report Abuse
      • Author by SMTDL (April 01, 2012 2:00 pm ET)
        12 1
        JJamele.....there has been enough coverage of Spike Lee and Roseanne Barr's mistakes,that people interested in the case are well aware of both.I don't know anyone that doesn't agree that they should have showed more judgment and restraint.
        As to Chris Hayes'coverage and covergae in general,who has said that Trayvon Martin was a child saint?Who said Zimmerman was a racist thug?The assessment is more so that he may have racially profiled Trayvon Martin who had committed no crime and was unarmed so a limited threat at best!.What made him suspicious to Zimmerman?I see all kinds of people wearing hoodies even when it's not raining.He was walking in an unfamiliar area so may have been checking out address numbers to make sure he took the correct return route.
        Being aware of Zimmerman watching and following(which is stalking) what stalking),he may have reacted in a way that Zimmerman would call even more suspicious behavior.He's 17 years old,it was dark out and he is being followed by an unknown man.Think of that and show some empathy.That is what most people are doing.He had a reason to be very scared,esp if he saw that this man had a weapon.Zimmerman is 28 and armed.He did not have a history free of violence as Treyvon did.The other youthful transgressions may be issues but are not particularly relevant where as Zimmerman's history of following residents had been complained about.His numerous calls to Police reported a lot of normal activity that was not criminal and perhaops not even suspicious to most people.When you just look at these facts,most fair minded people see Zimmerman's behavior far more questionable than this young man.It is a false equivalence to try to make their apparent faults as equal.Isn't Zimmerman supposed to show adult behavior and judgment? Where was it when he followed Trayvon even before he was told he didn't need to do that?Chris Hayes ,like others is only trying to speak for teh person that can't speak for himself!The Police listened to Zimmerman and gave him a huge benefit of the doubt.They came out right away defending Zimmerman and their decison not to arrest him.They did no such thing for Trayvon Martin.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Bronwyn (April 01, 2012 3:19 pm ET)
          12  
          SMTDL, thanks again for pointing out to me, that Trayvon died 70' from his home and not 15 feet. I went back and listened to the tape again and corrected that other post. Some in the media are still saying 15 feet. I think they got that from, like you said, that was the distance from the witness's window.

          Trayvon Martin's father retraces his son's final steps.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by SMTDL (April 02, 2012 11:59 am ET)
            2  
            NP Bronwyn....he was close to home and the struggle/fight was close to windows of other homes.Maybe the justice system will eventually sort this out,but it needs to be soon so Statute of Limitations doesn't become an issue.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Bronwyn (April 02, 2012 12:32 pm ET)
              2  
              Well, I don't think there is a statute of limitation on murder of homicide. Now, if they were holding him they would have to charge him or release him in a certain amount of time,

              Very often the investigations before it even gets to the Grand Jury, for an indictiment, takes a long time.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Bronwyn (April 02, 2012 1:55 pm ET)
                1  
                or not of homicide.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by SMTDL (April 03, 2012 1:34 pm ET)
                     
                  I should have been more clear.I thought there was an issue where they have to charge him within 90 days because technically they arrested him but didn't end up filing charges.This to me is like a Statute of Limitations,even though it's one the Sanford Police Department created by changing their "collective" mind.
                  Report Abuse
      • Author by steeve (April 01, 2012 3:14 pm ET)
        11 1
        How, oh how will we ever fully know what really happened?

        I know. LET'S HAVE AN EFFING TRIAL and find out. MSNBC wants a trial. Fox doesn't.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by dazednamused (April 01, 2012 4:02 pm ET)
        12 1
        Ummmmm here's a stupid question: Since when are Roseanne Barr and Spike Lee members of the news media?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by mjh (April 01, 2012 6:16 pm ET)
          7 1
          "Since when are Roseanne Barr and Spike Lee members of the news media?"


          Since Fox decided they are.

          The same way Fox decided the five members of the NBPP were representative of all blacks . . .


          Report Abuse
      • Author by bintx (April 01, 2012 4:58 pm ET)
        13 1
        I don't care how big anyone was . . . Zimmerman became the aggressor the minute he ignored the 911 dispatcher's admonition not to follow Martin. Martin had done nothing wrong and he was being stalked by this man with a gun. If Martin turned on and "attacked" Zimmerman, he was well within his rights to defend himself from someone that he perceived to be a threat. Zimmerman, no matter what color his skin or heritage, no matter what his size, was the AGGRESSOR and he shot and killed an unarmed teenager. The investigating officer was spot on which his initial desire to file aggravated manslaughter charges against him. According to the laws of the State of Florida, when an adult's "culpable negligence" takes the life of a child under the age of 18, the adult has committed the crime of Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child. I think most people want to know why this wasn't the case in this matter.

        As for Roseanne Barr and Spike Lee or any of the other of these dimbulbs who made stupid, dumba** comments, they should be ashamed.

        My suggestion to you, jjamele, is to quit watching these networks since they cause you so much distress. I quit watching them a long time ago.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by jeffnky (April 01, 2012 4:59 pm ET)
        11 2
        Don't you see the difference?

        How can you compare shooting a 17 year old child to death with someone else saying some thing that was criticized and retracted.

        A child is dead for no good reason.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by mari2jj (April 02, 2012 2:40 pm ET)
        2  
        Actually, Treyvon's murder by this thug is so disgusting and racist that any defense of the guy makes the defender a suspect racist. First, the dispatcher told Zimmerman NOT to follow Treyvon. Now the experts KNOW that the person heard on the tape in such distress was Treyvon and that this goof gunned down an unarmed child that he had explicitly been told NOT to follow. But in the end, I am willing to let them haul this dolt into court and let the jury decide. "But even in some of the most racist areas, most rational people have a Godly bias against gunning down an unarmed child. But let the case proceed and let the facts come out. But I am well aware that the dispatcher did tell Zimmerman NOT to follow Treyvon, but he not only followed him, he gunned him down in cold blood. Now the tape shows it was Treyvon and not Zimmerman who was screaming for help and talking about his attacker. Even with his judge daddy trying to make a silk purse out of the cow's ear in this case, it is just not working. I have a friend organizing a "Don't visit the state" campaign and we are following it. There was a conference there that we would like to attend but not now and one of the organizers wrote Chamber of Commerce and the Governor to let them know why.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by mr. l (April 01, 2012 12:46 pm ET)
      26 4
      Uh- huh.... I noticed the libby commentator didn't mention the Brand Spankin' New Black Panthers involvement in all this! They are bad and scary and make me nervous- why doesn't Obama arrest them?!

      Also, I heard the 'kid' was actually a gang member and 'skittles' is the term those ruffians use for 'AK-47s', so Zimmerman saved the neighborhood from turning into a Bosnian-like war zone; good for him!

      I'm just a regular Joe who gets his info from Fox News and I base all my important decisions on their awesome input!

      Report Abuse
      • Author by phlcstgan (April 01, 2012 12:49 pm ET)
        22 2
        I genuinely thought you were a troll after your first couple sentences, simply because that's so close to what the actual right is saying. Well-played. Terrifying, but well-played.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Boswell (April 01, 2012 1:35 pm ET)
        9  
        yuppers and "goon" in an endearment...
        Report Abuse
      • Author by mari2jj (April 02, 2012 2:48 pm ET)
        2  
        Nothing regular about you JOE! Not a thing. I think your irony is laughable though. At first I did not get it and reacted poorly to your comment. I did finally get it though. Thanks for lightening up this horrible tragedy even for a few seconds. But in the end, this was an unarmed child and he did not have a reputation for any bad stuff. AND the shooter was told by the dispatcher NOT to follow this child. But instead of following those instructions, the guy did follow this child and gunned him down although Trayvon was unarmed. Even this guy's judge daddy cannot save this guy because the Feds are going to get involved in this racist incident and Zimmerman is in a world of hurt!
        Report Abuse
    • Author by CoolSlaw (April 01, 2012 12:50 pm ET)
      17 5
      Bill O'Reilly's comment at the end there is so utterly unaware of it's own irony.

      First he accuses MSNBC and CNN of having already convicted Zimemrman on the air, which would be very different from Fox news acquitting and making excuses for him. Then he proceeds to compare this to the Rodney King case (as Brent Bozell talks about Tiwana Brawley(sp)) because apparently these media conservatives see black people as nothing more then a series of racially charged episodes and events.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by phredicles (April 01, 2012 2:36 pm ET)
        9 4
        And like the Reich-wing media didn't convict Martin of being a vicious thug who somehow managed to give Zimmerman the thrashing of his life.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by phredicles (April 01, 2012 3:32 pm ET)
          6 2
          Now that I think of it, it reminds me a bit, since I live in LA, of the whole Kobe Bryant rape accusation debacle. The sports blather radio station would solemnly intone "Innocent until proven guilty". Then they'd report every nasty rumor about the complaining witness as if it were a fact.

          Maybe the moral of the story is that the media will rally around an African-American accused of a crime, provided he's the best player on a championship-caliber sports team. Random kids are still on their own, of course.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by bailorgana (April 01, 2012 12:55 pm ET)
      13  
      Did Fox News, and the rest of FAR RIGHT, so got how they got involed with the Terri Schiavo case, or how Hannity team-up with Zealot Randle Terry, or O'reilly obsession with Dr. Tiller.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by CoolSlaw (April 01, 2012 1:10 pm ET)
        17 3
        So true,

        Have we already forgotten Terry Schiavo, the Duke LaCrosse team, Amanda Knox, Elizabeth Smart, or any of the other number of sensational media stories that become the national focus for weeks at a time?

        Suddenly Fox news and other right wing media is above all that when the story highlights the glaring flaws in the gun lobby written "stand your ground" laws.

        Fox news: Your source for predictable partisan hypocrisy.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by bailorgana (April 01, 2012 3:39 pm ET)
          8  
          I forgit how Billo rush and judge Acorn, Shirley Sherod, & Porfessor Bell
          Report Abuse
          • Author by jeffnky (April 01, 2012 4:31 pm ET)
            7  
            What about senator David Vitter R. Reelected in 2010. That's all I to say my right wing friends. Then I start laughing and ask if they want me to give details.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:33 pm ET)
              5  
              Hey man, that is uncalled for. It is a Senator's right to blackmail a cabinet member.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by gg (April 01, 2012 1:15 pm ET)
        6  
        How soon they forget!
        Report Abuse
    • Author by GBU-15 (April 01, 2012 1:02 pm ET)
      14 1
      Zimmerman was and is a wanna-be hero. Him and his shiny 9mm pistol were gonna show the world what a big guy he was. Instead what happened was he confronted a innocent kid in the dark and either accidently or purposely shot him. He needs to step up and take responsibility for what he did. Teabaggers as always carry water for those they feel to be victimized. And as usual they defend the offending party. Trayvon is the victim here not Zimmerman.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:44 pm ET)
        7 1
        accidently or purposely shot him
        Given Trayvon's repeated screams for help, which were silenced by that gun shot, I don't think there is any "accidently" involved.

        I think (and understand that this is simply my opinion, but it is an educated one based on what I have researched about Zimmerman) that Zimmerman purposely set out to do harm to Martin. The fact that, despite the 911 operator telling him not to pursue coupled with his muttered "these (bleep)s always get away" to he other muttered "(bleep)ing c00ns" tell me that he had every intention of killing him one.
        I think that Martins screams for help made him hurry up the affair, because he was afraid that someone might show up and interfere with his hunt.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by notsure5 (April 02, 2012 1:30 pm ET)
          2  
          It's even more simple than that. He claimed self defense, which indicates that it was not an accident.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by Bronwyn (April 01, 2012 6:59 pm ET)
        7  
        I don't believe Zimmerman was as interested in being a hero as he was just itching to kill someone. If he was seriously concerned about his neighborhood in his self-appointed role as captain......

        1) He would have been wearing the recommended fluorescent colored vest, while patrolling.

        2) He would not have been armed with a gun, against NWA rules.

        3) He would have taken the recommended NWA training provided by the Sheriff's Office.

        4) He would have left it up to the Police to handle once he notified 911, and they told him they did not need him to follow the victim.

        Zimmerman had attended NWA meetings held by Sanford Chief of Police, he was well aware of the rules he was violating.

        Chris Tulko director of the Neighborhood Watch Association for the National Sheriff's Association, made a public statement that Zimmerman broke cardinal rules.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Chameo (April 02, 2012 1:16 am ET)
          5  
          At least one person has stated that Zimmerman wasn't out patrolling that night, that he was actually one his way to Target when he spotted Martin and called the police. If that's the case, then Zimmerman wasn't actually violating the rules of the NWA -- he was obviously carrying his gun in case he ran up against a little old lady trying to grab the last 4-pack of Charmin and willing to fight him for it. Because, you know, I always carry when I run out to Target to pick up household goods. Suburban housewives will kill for a bargain, you know.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Bronwyn (April 02, 2012 5:58 am ET)
            3  
            LOL. thanks for the info. I would think he would keep his vest in his SUV should he ever have be in hot pursuit, and besides once he started checking the kid out the guns should have been left behind. According to Tulko.

            I can't get it to post but the Miami Herald, had an article showing more examples of Zimmerman's thug tactics. Titled "George Zimmerman: Self-appointed watchman or racist killer? Trayvon Martin-MiamiHerald.com

            Zimmerman self appointed watchman or racist killer.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Bronwyn (April 02, 2012 6:07 am ET)
              3  
              S/B to be and gun not guns. That link works if you put the title I gave in their search box.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 04, 2012 9:03 am ET)
               
            Interesting. I don't know about in Florida, but here in Texas, Target has a "no guns" sign on the door. In other words, if you are legally packing, you have to leave it in your car.

            I don't have a CHL, but I assume that one of the rules might be "if you know that you are going somewhere that doesn't allow carrying, leave the gun at home." After all, it is amazingly simple for someone to break into your vehicle and take that gun that you left under the seat.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by gg (April 01, 2012 1:18 pm ET)
      17 2
      Bozell is saying the lefty media (what little there is of it) is acting as judge, jury and executioner of Zimmerman, no, that is what he did to Martin.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by phlcstgan (April 01, 2012 1:23 pm ET)
        13  
        You know, it's perfectly true that news media shouldn't convict people pre-trial. That said, it's an undisputed fact that Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager dead, and it's a fact that his excuse is inconsistent with witness testimony, physical evidence and his own earlier accounts. And yeah, his fate should be decided by a jury of his peers; that's why he should be arrested and charged.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:47 pm ET)
          4  
          It is also true that Fox and the entire Right Wing Propaganda Machine has, as one, stood up and defended Zimmerman. In the process, they have also convicted Martin as a gangbanging, pot smoking thug with ninja powers who deserved to be shot.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by politeradical (April 01, 2012 2:38 pm ET)
        7  
        Wait you mean Zimmerman was not taken out by an MSNBC lynch mob?

        Seriously how in the hell can someone be an executioner without taking a life?
        Report Abuse
    • Author by worrierking (April 01, 2012 1:33 pm ET)
      19  
      In a nutshell.

      Martin was stalked by an armed vigilante, Zimmerman.

      Florida has a "Stand Your Ground" law.

      Zimmerman confronted Martin, who in the worst case, stood his ground and defended himself from Zimmerman. Martin got the best of Zimmerman in a fight started by Zimmerman.

      How can the person who stood his ground, Martin, be anything but innocent under Florida law?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Andy Kreiss (April 01, 2012 2:38 pm ET)
        12 4
        It's almost as if the law applies to different people based on their appearance. But that's impossible, it's us loony libbies who are the hippokritz.

        BTW, Happy Fool's day, King, and in case you missed it, we've got another internet Dirty Harry creeping around and slingin' iron. These teabaggers are always ready to shoot out their own car windows, just to keep us free from Negro Attacks.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by worrierking (April 01, 2012 8:31 pm ET)
          7  
          Sounds like he's the real deal. I wonder if he has pictures of that big gun he talks about?

          I like his first sentence about bankers never breaking into houses like all of the scary black guys do.

          Bankers don't need to break in, they foreclose. I've had my house robbed but never been thrown out. I lost a camera, a couple of bucks and some lose change. So far, I haven't been tossed out by a thieving banker.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Andy Kreiss (April 02, 2012 2:32 am ET)
            6  
            Comments are closed on that one, but I love the similarities between the make-believe anecdotes of skull and Extremist ( the one I linked to).

            They may have seen too many of those 70s cop shows, where an elbow in a jacket takes out a car window with a sharp jab. Assuming they're in a newer model vehicle with the windows up and the door locked ( safe assumption for paranoid racists driving on the wrong side of the tracks), an unarmed or knife-wielding thug should earn more laughter than gun-play.

            Yeah, the analogy seemed a bit much for him.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by mjh (April 02, 2012 1:35 am ET)
          6  
          "BTW, Happy Fool's day, King, and in case you missed it, we've got another internet Dirty Harry creeping around and slingin' iron."



          A sample from that thread from dimlighter:

          You know what I'll try and consol my lack of English skills out on the lake this weekend in my 38' Donzi motor yacht while complementing were I went wrong in my carrier choice. I know you will scream I'm lying but again I will try to keep that in mind this weekend while I'm having such a miserable time.


          The internet: where every man is rich, handsome, and a stud.

          {And every rightwingnut troll is super-rich, is dating a stripper, and is a retired military hero . . . and whose English skills are lacking}

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Andy Kreiss (April 02, 2012 2:36 am ET)
            7  
            That's why I love when they come here. It's funny enough when I visit right wing sites, where they seem to have an unwritten law in believing each others ridiculous stories.

            But even funnier when they come here, sounding like 12 year olds who can't read, and bragging about their James Bond-style lives.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by worrierking (April 02, 2012 7:52 am ET)
            5  
            The quote you posted from the wingnut Walter Mitty sounds like it could have been written by BobbyJindalFan. He too led a very comfortable imaginary life with his guns, hot black girl friend (so he couldn't be called a racist) and love of Austrian economics.

            At first I was happy because I thought he decide to come back to us. But then I reread the quote and realize that BJF would have never gone out on a lake in his 38' boat while complementing anything. He'd have done it whilst he was complementing.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by MidnightWriter (April 02, 2012 8:24 am ET)
              7  
              I must confess, there's a part of me that sorta, kinda misses BJF, his wild stories, his laughable failures. And hoosier, and MagCynic, and a select few others who would enter here with such passion to scream "Nobody cares about what Media Matters says!" before offering a post that showed that they all too clearly cared, and launched into their compulsive, and often idiotic, defenses of their heroes.

              Ah, but there's always a new crop of friends that want to play. Trolls come in. Trolls go out. So eager to push their mis-communication. They never miss a beat.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mjh (April 02, 2012 1:00 pm ET)
                6  
                WK and MW, you just mentioned two of my favorites: MagCynic and BJFan.

                Mag could always be counted on to appear on any thread involving Glenn Beck, in order to "explain" what Beck "really meant" {it was for this reason I always referred to him as "MagCynic, Beck's Intern"} . . . Mag conspicuously disappeared around the time Beck did from Fox -- hmm . . .

                BJF was, along with K1Dork, one of the most ridiculous trolls ever to grace this site . . . what I found most entertaining about him -- aside from his gun collection, hot black girlfriend, and life in Spain and/or Ireland -- was his absolute conviction that he was superior as a human being to President Obama; he once stated that he would "never lower himself to meet [the President]" . . . to me, this was emblematic of the mindset of teabagging rightwingnutjobs; these people have little education or accomplishments and are unable to accept a black man with more of both occupying the White House -- the only way they can feel better about themselves is to denigrate him . . .



                Report Abuse
                • Author by Andy Kreiss (April 02, 2012 1:48 pm ET)
                  6  
                  One of the 'occasional trolls' here a while back linked to his blog at TownHall. I bookmarked it to take a look later, just interested to see what he was like without any sane people questioning him.

                  It was mostly painfully boring, mindless right wing navel-gazing, except for his comments on race. That part was fascinating.

                  The guy is not that bright, despite his working the sh*t out of his word-a-day calendar, but the condescending and dismissive way he commented on the president ( and Melissa Harris Perry, I believe) was actually interesting. The dull details of wingnut thought, the politics, are so tired and repetitive that I tune them out. It's the accidental glimpses into their psychology that I like.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mjh (April 02, 2012 8:14 pm ET)
                       
                    I remember him -- wasn't that Joe Btrfspk {or letters to that effect?}

                    I always referred to him as "Joe Buttcrack", since his postings seem to originate there . . . a regular poster, don't remember who {might've been bintx}, said all he did was post droppings here, then re-post our replies on his blog.

                    How sad is your life when you have to resort to C&P replies from a site you hate in order to get traffic for your blog?


                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Andy Kreiss (April 02, 2012 11:17 pm ET)
                         
                      I don't think I ever visited Joe buttsteak's blog, I never saw a coherent enough sentence out of him to make me want to go there.

                      The one I was referring to was Slow Cowboy (nee Rational Conservative). He wasn't a flamethrower, he was one of those Ned Flanders type passive aggressive trolls who thought he was much smarter than he was, and thought lying politely was ok.

                      If you want a taste, I've still got it bookmarked. Not sure if I can link to the individual entry headings, but try this, or this.

                      If that doesn't work, here's the link to the home page. Check out entries titled "Herman Cain - Game Changer" and "I admit it" for some cringe-worthy pseudo-intellectual babbling about race from a white guy who sounds like he's never met anybody who isn't white.

                      The "Tale of Two Stars" is pretty weird, too.
                      Report Abuse
            • Author by Andy Kreiss (April 02, 2012 11:15 am ET)
              5  
              Good catch, WK. It's all of that foreign adventure that leads to things like using 'whilst'.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by grmce (April 01, 2012 3:05 pm ET)
        8 1
        How can the person who stood his ground, Martin, be anything but innocent under Florida law?
        Therein lies the weakness of the local prosecutor who put the whole thing in the "too hard basket" by giving Zimmerman the presumption of self-defence under that dopey law without paying attention to who established the confrontation and thus benefits from the law - a presumption regarding the presumption?

        A wee bit of racism mayhap?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Conchobhar (April 01, 2012 3:54 pm ET)
          10  
          Uh, grmce, you are aware that, in Florida and much of the US, especially Fox News, standing while black negates the stand your ground laws?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:56 pm ET)
            6  
            Only for the person perpetrating the heinous crime of standing while black, or walking while black. Either of those crimes allows any non-black person to assume self defense and use stand your ground to ensure that they don't go to jail for murder.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mjh (April 01, 2012 6:23 pm ET)
              4  
              It appears -- in Florida, at least -- that standing while black and walking while black are now as serious offenses as driving while black once was . . .


              Report Abuse
      • Author by MidnightWriter (April 01, 2012 3:14 pm ET)
        15  
        There's the element that has been missing from the right wing "defense." If we are to accept the Zimmerman story without question it was Martin that was, by any reasonable standards, "standing his ground" after finding himself being tracked by someone unknown first in a vehicle and later on foot. I believe that, regardless of our political leanings, most of us would find the hairs on the back of our necks raised under those circumstances and seriously be concerned that we might be facing real danger.

        Again I'll say that I believe the right doesn't care about Zimmerman. It's their precious gun law they wish to defend. It's an argument I would listen to if they were to talk about what they feel are the merits of that law while making it clear that Zimmerman strayed from its intentions. Right now they've only focused on smearing Martin, waving a finger of shame at Spike Lee and Roseanne (we're all pretty much in agreement that they were reckless and wrong), and screaming, "Hey! Zimmmerman's not white! He's not white! So why are you lefties so obsessed with seeing racism in the death of this hoodie wearing empty bag of weed carrying 'gangsta' that we uncovered a picture of wearing grillz."

        This, "we've got very good reasons to be afraid of brown people, and here are our best entirely unrelated to the topic examples," is something we've seen so many times before. If it's immigration, or the location of a community center being built by Muslims, or a birth certificate, or a poet being invited to speak at the White House, or the guest list for a President's birthday celebration, or a young man who just looked too damned suspicious to an armed guy looking for trouble. These idiots continue to amaze me with how deep they're willing to dive into their self created cesspool of hate hoping to bring something "reasonable" to the surface that will somehow justify the unreasonable.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 5:47 pm ET)
        7 1
        How can the person who stood his ground, Martin, be anything but innocent under Florida law?
        Um... in case you missed it, Martin was black.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Mother2 (April 01, 2012 1:34 pm ET)
      6  
      I just saw a reporter on Media Matters argue why she brought out Trayvon's suspension record. I pray that my sons' teenage actions will not be used for the justification of their murder/death. I am blessed that they are not DEAD because they placed their picture on FACEBOOK like other teens showing their friends how outlandish they can be! I am glad that I was not rebuked for putting on my sight p...ictures of my children that I would like the world to see through my eyes! I am TRULY blessed that both of my sons lived beyond 17 despite their choices of clothing and routes they took to and FRO! I am BLESSED that they have never been stalked, chased and called names. They did not have to call out for HELP beccause no one was around to help them in unfamiliar surroundings. I am frustrated that another mother's son and family is enduring this pain and agony. I stand by their struggle for JUSTICE and answers!!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Bronwyn (April 02, 2012 2:00 pm ET)
        3  
        Very nice post. I completely agree with you.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by curiousindependent (April 04, 2012 9:14 am ET)
           
        I'm with you, Mother2. I think that what makes all of us the most angry about this incident is the fact that the entire Right Wing in the USA has stood as one in praising and defending a killer, while at the same time demonizing an innocent kid who was minding his own business.

        I cannot even imagine the horror Trayvon's mother must feel every time she hears that 911 tape and recognizes her little boy's voice screaming in terror.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by mhughen (April 01, 2012 2:41 pm ET)
      16 3
      When the black community confronts institutionalized racism and DARES to speak up in defense of itself, INEVITABLY, the defenders of the power structure rush forth to denounce those who seek equal justice. Their denouncements are especially vivid toward those who have enough power to take the message of equality under the law to a larger audience. They are denounced as 'race baiters' and 'race pimps.' However, these denouncements only serve to reinforce the need to speak out in the first place. These denouncements lay bare the institutional racism the denouncers defend and frequently expose their own individual bigotry.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by politeradical (April 01, 2012 3:00 pm ET)
        14 6
        The right seems determined to disappear the country's history of prejudice and racism by acting as if it no longer exists. That with Obama's election, while a step in the right direction, the Pandora's box has been closed.

        Unfortunately it seems his election had the opposite effect.

        Even more sadly, cynical pundits use this "there is no more racism" attitude as a basis to attack anyone who dares to bring the issue up.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by curiousindependent (April 01, 2012 6:00 pm ET)
          6 1
          The right seems determined to disappear the country's history of prejudice and racism by acting as if it no longer exists.
          What is truly funny about that is that they have repeatedly accused the left of claiming that that is what Obama's election meant.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by little poncho (April 01, 2012 9:43 pm ET)
      5 2
      throw this george in jail, until the trial comes up. the hell with the right wingies' say on radio or tv. if it was their son or daughter they would want him in jail!!!!!!!!!!!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Chameo (April 02, 2012 1:48 am ET)
        7  
        And therein lies the rub. Imagine for a minute that everything about this case was exactly as it is, except when police arrived, they found George Zimmerman dead, shot with his own gun. The same 911 calls, the same history, the same everything, except that in the struggle, one way or another, the gun went off and George Zimmerman was the one hit. Where would Trayvon Martin be? Would he have walked out of that police station that night? What would the narrative be? That George Zimmerman, brave member of the neighborhood watch, paid the ultimate price for his vigilance? That he confronted a dangerous, suspicious thug who took his gun away from him and executed him?

        Trayvon Martin would be sitting in jail awaiting trial -- if he was lucky enough not to be shot at the scene by police responding to the 911 calls. And had the police treated him the same way they've treated George Zimmerman, all the people who are out there screaming that Zimmerman is being tried and convicted by the media would be freaking out that a dangerous killer is allowed to walk free because he could claim self defense... and the loudest voices would be the pansies who try to pretend that no one would ever take THEIR gun away from them.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by chuckie (April 03, 2012 8:27 am ET)
         
      I'm trying to understand this "stand your ground" law. Does it only apply to the person with the gun? Ie. if Trayvon had beaten Zimmerman to death would the law apply? Trayvon had a right to be there and Zimmermon accosted him. So if Trayvon had the right to stand his ground, Zimmerman's self-defense claim is irrelevant, isn't it?

      Or does the law only apply to the survivor? The only person not arrested is the person that survives the encounter. That's why Trayvon's blood was tested for drugs and alcohol and not Zimmerman's. If Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, then Zimmerman's blood would have been tested.

      And if the law is really stand your ground, how does that apply when you are stalking another person.

      Is the real result (intent?) of this law to have more shootouts?
      Does this law apply to drive-by shootings? If somone is encroaching on your turf, does that give you the right to shoot them? ie. does ground = turf?

      Does the law say anything about illegal activities, or is your fear of them all it takes to justifiably shoot them? In that case, Republicans really scare me. Paul Ryan REALLY scares me. He's trying to rob my Social Security. Does the stand your ground apply?

      If someone can help me with the law, I have some follow-up questions about how you can rush to judgment and convict someone who hasn't been charged with a crime.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by curiousindependent (April 04, 2012 9:16 am ET)
           
        I may be wrong, but I do believe that the law stipulates that you have to be someplace that you have a legal right to be, and not conducting illegal activity. Other than that, I think is pretty much says you can chase down and shoot someone whose facial expression scared you.
        Report Abuse

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